Thursday, December 16, 2004

We are a Judeo - Christian Nation!

I am so tired of the endless effort by groups like the ACLU and Americans United for Separation of Church and State to take Christ out of Christmas and take Christianity out of America altogether. They are using nothing more that revisionist history to blur America's Founding Fathers' true intentions.

We are a nation founded on the basic structure of the Judeo Christian religion, this is a fact that cannot be ignored. There is not one, NOT ONE! mention of "separation of Church and state" anywhere to be found in our Constitution. Quite the contrary, in the Declaration of Independence it mentions God and Creator. Our judicial system was established using the Ten Commandments as one of it's guideposts. In fact the term "separation of Church and state didn't even exist before 1802 when Jefferson wrote in a personal letter to the Danbury Baptists telling them not to worry that the Federal govt would not involve itself with the business of the Church. To Jefferson, his statement meant the exact opposite of what the American left is trying to shove down out throats today!

The Establishment Clause in the First Amendment is there so the Federal govt could not establish a national denomination of Christianity. Remember when their ancestors fled England they were fleeing religious persecution. They were being required to belong to the Church of England or the Anglican Church of which the King of England had established. They were fleeing religious intolerance! In this country you are free to choose whatever faith you want to follow, even the faith of atheism (yes it is a faith) You are not free, however to deny me my right to express my Christian beliefs however and wherever I so choose.

And before any of you try the Treaty of Tripoli thing on me, I refer you here.

15 Comments:

At December 17, 2004 at 2:06 AM, Blogger Buzzy Coltrane said...

Word? Who would know better about what America is supposed to be about between you and John Adams? John Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli and Article 11 of that treaty states:
The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.

Have a good day.

 
At December 17, 2004 at 2:13 AM, Blogger Buzzy Coltrane said...

Oh, and yes, I did read that link first before posting that. What about this?

Thomas Jefferson:

I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.

 
At December 17, 2004 at 2:22 AM, Blogger Buzzy Coltrane said...

And what about all the contradictions in The Bible and all the inaccurate facts? Why do Christians only abide by the rules that they want to and just ignore all the others? You, my friend, are not "Christ like." I won't bug you any more because, frankly, I find you to be kind of strange.

 
At December 20, 2004 at 3:36 PM, Blogger theDuke said...

Buzzy,

You post 3 seperate incoherent comments on here and I'm the strange one? I believe I'll let your comments stand for what they are...

 
At December 20, 2004 at 8:20 PM, Blogger Editor said...

In my opinion, it is not the goal of the organizations that you mention in your first paragraph to remove Christianity out of America "altogether". It is most likely that members of theses organizations seek to remove Christianity from the appearance of state "promotion". Disagreement aside, I can understand and respect your sentiment. However, sentiment is of no regard in relation to the actions of public officials in a representative government such as the case here in the U.S.A. It is my assessment that the "Freedom of Religion" clause exists so as to guarantee "impartiality" in the actions of government officials with regard to religious issues.This is why it is generally acceptable for a private group to place a religious symbol in front of a government facility during Christmas, while it may not be acceptable for a government official to do the same.I would further argue that we are a "judeo-christian" nation in the most accurate sense that the value systems embodied in those faiths reflect the general moral underpinnings of what is largely a constitutional republic that grew out of enlightenment(and seclar) period design. Moreover, I would ask you to consider this last point: The seperation of church and state has done more for the practice of Christianity than any other political decision in the history of modern government. I am comforted that the believers of this faith in the U.S.A have come upon it with a heart and mind free of the helping hand of the State.

 
At December 20, 2004 at 8:34 PM, Blogger theDuke said...

Sam,

Thanks for the thoughtful post. My arguement is that the US is indeed a nation founded on the principles of the Judeo - Christian religions, this is historical fact. Some members of the Continental Congress had to take an oath that they beleived in God or thier states would not have sent them. This aside, the point is, we are a Christian nation but you don't have to be a Christian to live here. You can beleive in whatever you choose as an American and not have to worry about being persecuted, that's the true greatness of this country. This does not change our history, however.

 
At December 21, 2004 at 1:25 PM, Blogger MagicMafia said...

Amen and agreed. Refreshing to read a site that shares views closely related to my own. I also refer you to the website:

www.stoptheaclu.org

 
At December 21, 2004 at 10:27 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I am so tired of the endless effort by groups like the ACLU and Americans United for Separation of Church and State to take Christ out of Christmas and take Christianity out of America altogether. They are using nothing more that revisionist history to blur America's Founding Fathers' true intentions.

We are a nation founded on the basic structure of the Judeo Christian religion, this is a fact that cannot be ignored."

I'm also tired of the ACLU's attacks on Christianity (and I'm not a Christian) but let's get our facts straight: The moral values at the core of Christianity are indeed a powerful part of our culture and Christians are now the majority in America but it is important to note that a) the moral values at the basis of Christianity are not exclusively Christian values; the majority of the worlds major religions share nearly identical moral values and b) many of the founders of this country were Diests, not Christians. Indeed, they talked and wrote of "God" and the "Creator," but very little was said of Christ or Christianity.

"The Establishment Clause in the First Amendment is there so the Federal govt could not establish a national denomination of Christianity."

Herein lies the current problem. Christianity is, thanks to the “Religious Right,” being turned into a political entity. This new political face on the Christian religion gave birth to the current backlash against Christianity. Christianity has now (in the eyes of many) become intrinsically tied to the Religious right's political agenda and has become an object of fear (justifiably so). As in so many other areas of life, a relatively few power hungry people have turned public opinion against a whole class of people.

I believe that until and unless Christianity rids itself of it's "Religious right" image and goes back to being a religion -- removing the fear factor -- the onslaught against Christian symbols will probably continue.

"You are not free, however to deny me my right to express my Christian beliefs however and wherever I so choose."

Agree -- as long as your “expression” does not deny anyone else their rights. (Your “right” to swing your fist, ends at my nose.) Your use of "however and wherever" is bothersome.

Whymrhymer
(whymrhymer@hotpop.com)
(http://whymrhymer101.blogspot.com)

 
At December 21, 2004 at 10:39 PM, Blogger theDuke said...

What I meant by "however and wherever" is my right to pray or read the bible. There have actually been cases where schools told students they could not pray or read the bible, even on thier lunch brakes. This is what infuriates me. There is no precedent for this.

 
At December 21, 2004 at 10:41 PM, Blogger Conor said...

The Declaration mentions God the Creator, a concept shared among many religions, including Deism, a popular religion among 18th century intellectuals.

The constitution, while it doesn't say "seperation of church and state" doesn't mention that it was based on any religion either, fancy that.

If our judicial system was based on the 10 commandments, how come only two of them are laws? In addition, those laws (no theft, no murder) pre-date the 10 commandments.

You as a christian are free to practice as you see fit and believe as you see fit. The government, however, should not involve itself in religion. That means the government should not be sponsoring christmas parades, just like it shouldn't be sponsoring ramadan parades. My theory as far as public space/schools is equal oppurtunity for all. If a private group wants to pay to put up a christmas tree/manger scene, thats fine, as long as a private group can also put up displays for non-christian holidays as well. If kids want to organize bible-study on their own time on school grounds thats fine, as long as kids can also have koran study, baghavad ghita study, etc.

We are not a christian nation, we are a nation with a majority population of christians. The difference is important.

 
At December 21, 2004 at 10:50 PM, Blogger theDuke said...

Conor,

Would you mind explaining to me why the United States Congress opens thier sessions with a prayer from the official Congressional Chaplain?

The U. S. Constitution's lack of a Christian designation had little to do with a radical secular agenda. Indeed, it had little to do with religion at all. The Constitution was silent on the subject of God and religion because there was a consensus that, despite the framer's personal beliefs, religion was a matter best left to the individual citizens and their respective state governments (and most states in the founding era retained some form of religious establishment). The Constitution, in short, can be fairly characterized as "godless" or secular only insofar as it deferred to the states on all matters regarding religion and devotion to God.

 
At December 21, 2004 at 11:16 PM, Blogger Conor said...

I don't know why they do it, somewhere along the line they decided that they wanted to.

Like it or not, the constitution's only mention of religion is that it forbids religious oaths.

I agree, religion is best left to the individuals. So keep the Church out of the Government (and vice versa).

You ignored my first and third arguments: a monotheistic creative God is not unique to Abrahamic religions and only 2 of the 10 commandments are laws. those which are laws are not unique to judeo-christian philosophy nor were they invented by it.

 
At December 22, 2004 at 4:49 PM, Blogger theDuke said...

Conor,

The practice of the Congressional Chaplains (one in the House and one in the Senate) began in the Continental Congress in 1774. It was then carried on when the First Congress when both chambers elected chaplains in 1789. They are full time paid officers of the Congress. They open every day with a prayer and offer spiritual counseling and even bible study.

The only point I am trying to make is that our nations history is what it is. I am not advicating legislating from the Bible. I am a proponent of doing what is right for the majority of Americans, a lot of whom are not Christians. There's nothing wrong with that, they don't have to be and shouldn't be forced to believe. I would never be in favor of focing religion on people. All I am trying to get through to people is that our nation was founded on the morals and principles of our Founders...the majority of whom were Christian.

 
At December 22, 2004 at 10:54 PM, Blogger scientist said...

eh, I didn't read all that. But the founding fathers were not all Christians. Some were Diests. Though, it would be ignorant for people to say that non of the founding fathers were, because that is wrong. Most of the famous ones are Deists though, I think. I also caught something on my way scrolling down: because the caplin prays before congressional meetings start doesn't mean anything about what the founding fathers believed. The truth is most people in this country are Christian (myself included) That is the majority. Most of the politicans claim to be Christians for that fact.

 
At December 14, 2005 at 2:09 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

who is the government? what is his or her sex, racial origin? does this government person that is so involved with everything have a religion? does the government have the same rights as us?

 

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